Demi-Glace | Glace de Viande

After I cooled the stock overnight, I expected a layer of fat to set for removal. Instead, the entire stock had gelled, and there was no layer of fat on top - rather it seems as the fat and stock gelled together in the top 2 inches of the pot. This layer was slightly lighter than the pure gel beneath. It is possible that there was not much fat, as I did skim during the stock preparation. If anyone can explain this experience (and the best way to deal with it), I'd appreciate it! I used 5-6 joint ends and several meaty neck bones and the stock is very dark and rich. Today I will finish the reduction.

Sounds like you skimmed off the fat during cooking which is great. The gel is perfect by the way as this is the natural gelatin from the knuckle bones. The two different layers are fine, don't worry about it. This happens often. Simply simmer now to reduce and then you are done. Congratulations. See peppercorn steak on how to turn this into a great sauce. Nice work. Joe

Last night I pulled one of our frozen squares from the freezer and made a delicious bordelaise to serve over some bacon wrapped beef fillets. I have previously used demi-glace gold - a prepared demi available in markets. Not bad, but from now on, I will always have the real thing on hand (even though it took all weekend!). The sauce was richer and more flavorful with the real deal - and the texture was like velvet. I considered making an espagnole to produce less of a 'real demi', but would not bother with this step as this recipe is perfect for me.

The video recipe shows the chef boiling her stock. The stock recipe I'm using from Anthony Bourdain's Les Halles cookbook (p. 38) forbids boiling--simmer instead. I have heard the no-boil rule for stock elsewhere as well. What are the benefits of boiling vs. not boiling stock? Or does this boil down to one chef's preference over another's?

I made the stock... but then before reducing the second time. I browned more diced leeks, carrots , celery, and onions, then added the stock and added a bottle of red wine and reduced further...buidling more flavor and layers...

Boiling stock limits flavour extraction.When protien is heated at too high a heat it contracts and gives out less flavour. this is why we grill steaks, not bring them to boil and serve. The other reason you don't want to boil stock, is the Final yeild. The agitation of boiling breaks little tiny bits of material off the vegetables, then as they cook they swell and absorb stock, upon straining all this absorbed matter is left in your China cap, or straining devise. Oh and it is easier to skim fat off a simmer. As well, it is always easier to skim fat off before you add your veggies. And veggies give all their flavour in just a couple of hours, so you can always add them much later. I hope that sheds some light. And The les halles cook book is fun, but be cautioned when using recipes from Bourdain, as he is Famous for his witty writing not cooking. If you want to be enlightened on French Bistro Fare, pick up Bouchon by Thomas Keller, that is if it is not in your collection. Everyone should own that book.

idealno

The fat is in the matrix of collagen. There are several things happening. Once you've skimmed the major portion of the fat the suspened protiens, and the fats (which are slightly emuslified from the boiling, even at a simmer) are fairly well dispersed. Straining won't fix it, because the small particles will still get through the mesh. In a thin stock this isn't a problem, the liquid isn't viscous enough to really slow the movement. As the sauce reduces, the mobility of the particles/globules is slowed. As the sauce (esp. at the thickness of a demi-glace) cools, it gets thicker, further slowing the motion. I did a heavy reduction of the turkey carcass from thanksgiving, and the top 3 inches (in a qt. mason jar) have a delicate cloud, fading down the "clear" stock). It doesn't hurt the flavor. If you need a clear sauce, just unmold the stock, and slice off the part which isn't whitish.

Have not tried it yet but the video certainly showed me it was easy Thanks!

Boiling doesn't cause any greater contraction of protiens than grilling (grilling, in fact has higher heats at the point of conduction). Protiens coagulate, and denature, at specific temperatures (which varies by protein). The reason to use a low boil/simmer isn't the heat (they are the same, 212F/100C) but the agitation. At a high boil the oxygen leaving the solution causes more motion, which knock protiens apart, which makes the stock/soup/broth/sauce cloudy.

Wow was this easy! Really not any harder than making soup, and possibly changed how I will do that in the future. I just let it simmer overnight. What a special recipe. Thanks!

I was always wondering if I made demi-glaze will I be able to use it as a stock ? (after thinning it with water of course) I mean when we reduce it we are only evaporating water right ?

Hi Khaled, You are correct, you're just concentrating flavors and evaporating the water when reducing stock. You can certainly add water to demi glace and use it as a stock. Just be careful not to water it down too much. We often reduce stocks to save storage space in the freezer. When needed, we reconstitute with cold water and reheat.

Im sorry i am new to this term of demi glaze but is there any simple explanation of the two? Is demi glaze better as to make sauces? Thanks

Here is a video for this Cocc: http://rouxbe.com/recipes/81-demi-glace-glace-de-viande/preview In restaurants, chefs often used highly reduced (and concentrated veal stock) for sauces called demi glace. You can also use a reduced dark chicken stock. When you review the how to make stocks' lessons and the pan sauce lessons in the Rouxbe Cooking School, this should become very clear to you.

have u ever heard of deer demi glaze??? im cookin it right now.. reducin´. daaaamn this takes too long!!! cant wait till ill taste it!! i spent whole weekend over this shit!! peace

could u please tell me which animals are suitable for makin demi??

The best bones are from veal as they are more gelatinous than others. Beef would be a second choice. You can learn more about this in our cooking school lesson on making stocks.

i made the deer demi glaze and its crazy, It has a colour of dark soya souce and kind of taste like it..

What fun this was to make - and so beautiful. I was very excited to get the veal bones for free from the butcher at the tiny store I love - he was so happy to give them to me. Because we can only buy bouillon cubes here and no liquid stock (we live in Switzerland) I consider this gold. My question: Can I do something like this for chicken broth? I would love a super concentrated chicken glace. My freezer is about the size of a crisper drawer and being able to freeze cubes works so well. What do you think?

The answer is yes you can. Simply make a dark chicken stock and then reduce it. I make this all the time and it is delicious. For more information of making stocks, be sure to watch the Lessons on How to Make Chicken Stock. Good luck, glad you liked the "liquid gold/demi" - funny that you called it that, that is what we call our reduced chicken stock "liquid gold".

THIS WEEKEND I MADE DEMI AGAIN , WAS COOKIN IT FOR ABOUT 16 HOURS, UNTILL THE BONES WERE FORK TENDER :) DEMI IS REALLY THICK AND I DIDNT EVEN HAD TO REDUCE IT.. BUT THE PROBLEM IS, THERE ARE STILL LITLLE SOLIDS - OR LITTLE PARTS THAT I CANT REALLY STRAIN - AFTER REFRIGERATION, THE TOP PART OF THE DEMI IS REALLY NICE AND CLEAR, BUT THE BOTTOM OF THE TANK IS FULL OF THESE SMALL SOLIDS AND ALSO CLOUDIER.. SHOULD I USE A COFEE FILTER OR SOMETHIN? OR IS IT NORMAL?

You may just need to use a finer sieve or some cheese cloth (a coffee strainer may take forever). Also when you make stocks and cool them there is often still a bit of murky solids at the bottom of the pot. I use this small amount for cooking things like rice or stews. I save the clear stuff for soups etc. Cheers!

Here are the problems I think I had 1) my bones were massive - 10lbs and only five bones 2) They were frozen so I soaked them in water until they thawed 3) I dried them first then roasted them, I noticed black chunks on the bottom of the pan so I turned the oven down to 350. They looked golden and beautiful but the stock is red (due to too much tomato sauce?) 4) I never got a decent napa while the sauce was simmering, maybe needed to cool down to check napa? 5) They are now in the frig and are very gelatinous. I cut them into portions just like the video. 6) I only reduced the finished stock by half for the demi glace. Maybe I needed to reduce further? Problems: Not dark enough and tastes sort of like a weak broth. I was expecting a deep rich roasted flavor. I think I was expecting a more sauce-like consistency and flavor. I hate to waste money on the beef tenderloin if this demi glace didn't come out right. But looks like I don't have another recipe to test it on to make sure it's good roasted and beefy. On other videos I see lots and lots of that dark burned substance in the roasting pan, and everyone just pours it into the stock pot. I think I should have done that. But it looks like it's burned debris. I think I should have just left the temperature of the oven up and accumulated more of that burned looking stuff. Any help is appreciated!

To answer your questions... 1)My bones were massive - 10lbs and only five bones Answer: Next time have the butcher cut them up a bit. Cutting them up will allow more gelatin to be extracted and also expose more surface area for browning. 2)They were frozen so I soaked them in water until they thawed. Answer:When thawing bones it best to first place them bag before placing them into water so they do not become waterlogged. Excess moisture will just create steam and the bones will either not brown well or they will take too long and things in the pan can start to burn 3) I dried them first then roasted them, I noticed black chunks on the bottom of the pan so I turned the oven down to 350. They looked golden and beautiful but the stock is red (due to too much tomato sauce?) Answer: Could be that you used too much tomato paste, hard to say as I am not sure how much you used. 4) I never got a decent napa while the sauce was simmering, maybe needed to cool down to check napa? Answer:Sorry, not exactly sure what you mean by a napa? Are you referring to the French word nappage? And if so were you looking for the liquid to coat the back of a spoon? During the stock making process is too soon to check for this. Sauce can do this but generally stocks and broths do not. You will get this only if you reduce the stock down (like in the video). 5) They are now in the frig and are very gelatinous. I cut them into portions just like the video. Answer:Gelatinous is good 6) I only reduced the finished stock by half for the demi glace. Maybe I needed to reduce further? Answer: Perhaps if it tasted weak as you mentioned then reducing it further would have condensed or intensified the flavor. Problems you mentioned: Not dark enough and tastes sort of like a weak broth. I was expecting a deep rich roasted flavor. Because the bones where so big there wasn’t as much surface area being roasted so this could account for a lighter stock. Also did you roast the veggies? I think I was expecting a more sauce-like consistency and flavor. The consistency and final flavor will depend on how far you reduced the stock…like the video shows the more you reduce it the more concentrated and sauce like it becomes I hate to waste money on the beef tenderloin if this demi glace didn't come out right. But looks like I don't have another recipe to test it on to make sure it's good roasted and beefy. Answer: Practice is the best way to learn. I suggest that you reduce some of the stock down and then taste it to see if has a better richer flavor. You could also try making a pan sauce with it to test it out. On other videos I see lots and lots of that dark burned substance in the roasting pan, and everyone just pours it into the stock pot. I think I should have done that. But it looks like it's burned debris. I think I should have just left the temperature of the oven up and accumulated more of that burned looking stuff. Answer: Not sure about the “other videos”, if you add burned bits to a stock then the stock will generally have a burned or bitter note to it. Dark is okay but burned is another story. Any help is appreciated! Practice more - maybe perfect a dark chicken stock as chicken bones are generally cheaper and then move onto veal - just a thought :) Happy Cooking and don’t be discouraged, let this motivate you to figure it out. Hope this helps - Cheers!

Wow, thanks for such a lengthy explanation. Your suggestions are very enlightening! Yes, nappage is the word I was looking for, good to know about not checking it as it's simmering. Unfortunately my only source for veal bones does not chop them up smaller and they come frozen. I don't have a cleaver but was thinking of a vise and chain saw--they were massive! I just realized with those huge bones, I probably used far more water than needed. So that may also explain the "weak" broth. Great tip on thawing in a bag! Actually my dark chunks looked like your dark chunks, weird, still sketchy on that one but I'll start practicing on chicken, as suggested. The other videos I mentioned were on Youtube and other sources on the net which I watched long before I found Rouxbe. I did roast the veggies but probably didn't use enough of them. I hope this is going to be helpful for anyone else trying to make demi glace so they don't make the same mistakes I did. Rouxbe rocks!!!

I make alot of pot roast's can you add this to your pot roast and now i also relize why my pot roast gravy is always to light ..maybe this will help i am not sure ?

You can definitely use demi glace as the liquid for your pot roast. It will add delicious flavor and color. Depending on how far you have reduced it though, it could be too concentrated. You might want to try adding 1/2 demi glace and 1/2 water (taste it and see). You can also just use all veal/beef or even chicken stock that hasn't been reduced. This lesson on pot roasting provides a lot of information on liquids, ratios and developing flavor and color by searing the meat first. Hope this helps!

Hey guys, thanks for all the tips and I know this has been touched on before but I just want to clarify: In my Leiths Techniques Bible it states that although veal bones are often used for their gelatinous quality, they themselves impart limited flavour so for more flavour use a combination with beef. Would you agree? What I mean to say is, would the flavour shift between delicate to strong depending on the ratio of beef to veal or would you stick to your guns and say all veal is better Thanks!

:).. it scares me... I want so much to try but I'm worried I'm going to get all the ingredients and ruin it all. I think I over analyse everything! I'm worried if I order bones from the butcher they're gonna be not as fresh, and not the best selection (neck & back v thigh and drumstick bones etc). I'm worried if I try to save my own by whole boning chicken it's going to take forever! I'm thinking of having a go at whole boning and rolling a free range chicken in the freezer, then using the whole chicken carcass for my first attempt at stock...

Hi Kevin, Of all the techniques, making stock has been the one I've concentrated on the most in the months I've been here. Perhaps the best advice I've seen on the forums is to not over think it. Pick one type of bone, follow the fundamental stock lesson, and get started. There's plenty of time to modify and experiment in more complex ways. I began sometime this summer and usually have a new jar of either beef or chicken stock at least once every two weeks. I plan meals around that sometimes. For a few reasons, no two of my stocks have been the same, but that's fine. They have all contributed tremendously to what I put on the table in the end. Good luck and keep it simple.

Hi Kevin, Jim passes along the best advice. Don't over think it. If this is your first try at making dark stocks though, start with a Dark Chicken stock. the ingredients are very inexpensive and about the only thing that can happen negatively is that you a) over caramelize the bones or mirepoix (which would impart a slightly bitter flavor to your stock) or you boil it accidentally and your stock will be cloudy (but it's still usable so don't be too concerned over this one). Follow the steps in the Stock Making Fundamentals lesson, bring it to a simmer and then walk away. Let it do its thing. As for Veal and Beef. Some chefs don't really even like to make Beef Stock, but it's completely okay in our opinion. Veal, however, does impart an amazing flavor. But keep in mind that as you begin to make stocks, you can vary things up by mixing in chicken bones, lamb bones, it's doesn't really matter. What matters is the end flavor profile you want, which interestingly enough, you can even modify at the end of the stock making process when making a sauce or through the short stock method. Good luck. Cheers Joe

Thank you. That's reassuring. Though it's seemingly against my nature I'm going to try and follow Jim's advice and remember to "keep it simple". I think that's my biggest hurdle in the kitchen. I overcomplicate things in my head and consequently I'm disorganized because I spend too long on every stage rather than just getting on with it. It's so frustrating! I've been a member for over a year and I've only sought advice a few times and it's good to know you are available for guidance. Thank you for taking the time.

Has anyone ever made and tasted the classic Demi glace using sauce espagnole? I am curious how it compares to the recipe taught in the video. I have a book called The complete guide to the art of modern cookery by Escoffier with the recipe for the classic demi glace and wonder if it is worth making and want to know what difference there is between the contemporary version. I just purchased veal bones to make my first veal stock, they arent too easy to find. Also some recipes show using beef bones in addition to veal bones, I am assuming that may add more flavor. Do you have any experience with that and is that worth trying?

If you search for "sauce espagnole" in the forum discussions you will see a few threads on this subject. Cheers!

I was trying to find some recipes to use the demi-glace but realized that this lesson is not tied to any practice dishes as the other sauces are. Any ideas? Also, just wanted to ask if there is a reason why the demi-glace is not included in the sauces featured in the sauces lessons. Has it been substituted lately by more practical sauces like the pan sauces in modern cuisine? Thanks for your thoughts. I loved the video about how to freeze the demi-glace.

While this is a recipe for demi glace (straight reduction method), it is not an actual lesson (that is why there are no practice recipes attached to it). We are working on completing the sauce section of the Cooking School to include Demi and Demi-Derivative sauces. In the mean time, you can use the technique shown in the Pan Sauces lesson to create many of your own derivative sauces. Technically, the process in the Pan Sauce lesson shows you how to build any stock-based sauce - by cooking the protein, followed by the aromatics, then deglazing, adding stock/demi, seasoning, finishing, etc. For flavor pairing and inspiration, the Flavor Bible can definitely help you out in the mean time. Cheers!

Now I understand! Thanks for your very complete answer. I will review the pan sauces lesson.

So glad to hear about the upcoming lessons on demi and demi derivative sauces! I've been hoping to see that on the curriculum for a while. I often throw a demi "ice cube" into pan sauces, but I'm sure am only just scratching the surface of what is possible. Can't wait. Keep up the great work!

Hello, Is there a preference to the kind of oil used for the bones and the vegetables? Thank you!

In the dark stock lesson, we show using vegetable oil. Just make sure any oil that you use has a neutral flavor and a high smoke point that can withstand the heat. Cheers!

I have made light stock and dark stock and now ready to make Demi Glace but the only veal bones I can find are from suppliers to restaurants that do not sell to the public, with a minimum order of $125.00 or 44 lbs of leg bones, not cut up and not the beautiful knuckle bones shown in the lesson. I need 12 lbs of smaller bones, mostly or all knuckle bones as I understand it from watching the lessons. Do I try to buy from a fine restaurant? or what would you recommend. No commercial public markets can provide in my area. I don't want to buy more than I need or what will not work. I would rather use veal as the video shows and not beef. Either way, it will be a trick to get the bones I need. Any recommendations for an individual like myself?

I like your suggestion of trying to buy the veal bones from a fine dining restaurant. Nice work MacGyver :-) If you do not have any success there, then I guess I would continue to phone around to other butchers. Or maybe you know some other folks that might like to split a bigger order with you. There may also be some online sites that deliver veal bones. Hoep that helps a bit. Perhaps someone else may have some suggestions for you Ken. If it's any consolation, I prefer the taste of a nice dark chicken stock over the taste of a veal stock. Plus it's much cheaper. Cheers!

You are so fortunate to have learned what you like. I have not been down those avenues yet but maybe I will wind up agreeing about dark chicken stock too, and wouldn't that be so much more convenient? Any-hoo, I'm just learning here. I'll let you know when I find veal bones and how it comes about.

ken I am a student also and have purchased good quality veal bones online, they ship them overnight and frozen. I believe around 30 pounds. I used some for a huge batch of veal stock and kept the rest of unused bones frozen for the next batch. one site is marx foods http://www.marxfoods.com/Veal-Marrow-Bones , i believe this is where i purchased them last. Do a search on web for suppliers. i made veal stock and reduced down glace and then filled ice cube trays with geletanized glace, after frozen i use frozen cubes to add to sauces to add alot of flavor. Good Luck!

Thanks Douglas, I have contacted a local meat market that might be able to get these for me. The flash freeze them there and warned me about possible problems with marrow if they were not handled properly. I'm assuming yours were fine. Let's wait and see what the meat market says next week. Thanks so much for the link. That might be the one I use also if other options locally do not come through. I have put quite a few ripples in the waters today and rattling everyone's cages about this. The local French restaurant, the one with the James Beard Association award, I know they empathize with my plight but said they cannot sell to the public.

Hello all, I think I messed up my timing. Do you think that 20 hours to simmer is too long? Thanks for any help. Rod

As long as it tastes good then the time doesn't really matter. Timing depends on so many things, the heat, the amount of water added etc. Hope that helps Rod. Cheers!

What is the difference between this demi-glace and the classic version obtained from equal parts of dark stock and sauce espagnole? If sauce espagnole is made from the same ingredients of dark stock, except for the roux, what does it add to the stock when using it for demi-glace? Why the classic version was not chosen by Rouxbe? Thanks in advance.

Sauce Espagnole is one of the five mother sauces and will be covered in a subsequent lesson. While an important sauce in classic French cooking, this sauce is rarely used professionally anymore (in my experience). I worked in professional kitchens for many years and have never seen it prepared. Instead, a veal stock reduction is often used as the base for many derivative sauces. The most common sauce preparation in professional kitchens these days is often one made from the technique of pan sauce making. Here a great base stock is used (e.g. veal, dark chicken stock) to deglaze a pan after searing or pan frying and then finished in a variety of ways. Joe

Joe, why isn't espagnole used anymore? And what about my other questions? Thanks

Much reverence to your experience in the professional cooking world. I find "finished in a variety of ways" to be an intriguing comment, probably learned only over time and by direct experience. I am very interested in developing pan sauces and learning more about finishing. It does seem best to have a demi-glace ready and available, but also, I need a quicker method, and I'll be professional chefs also want to save time, and being able to develop sauces in the pan would be wonderful and I'm not sure yet how to go about it 'on the fly. I'll post this exact comment under pan sauces so you don't need a reply here.

I think the simple answer to why demi glace is not prepared using the classic method, is that the process takes a considerable amount of time and reductions from veal stock (or dark chicken and beef) are quicker and yield exceptional results. Demi glace was classically made by adding equal parts brown stock, and equal parts Espagnole sauce (which is made with roux, additional bones and mirepoix, sometimes red wine, tomato paste and brown stock). The roux and tomato paste add some thickening power to the Espagnole, which in turn adds thickening power to the demi so that it was not overly concentrated when reduced by half. As mentioned, it will be covered in a subsequent lesson, but again, I have only ever seen it once prepared in a commercial, high-end kitchen in my entire career (and it was when I made it when learning how to cook). Today, short cuts are used that produce exceptional results as illustrated in our videos. Here is more information if you'd like to read more about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demi_glace Joe.

Ken, this is a great question and one of my big revelations when I was learning to cook. However, it's a big subject for this forum so you'll have to wait until we release our upcoming classes. I will cover this at some point I promise. For now, if you re-watch the lesson and think about the pan sauce components, and then check out the practice recipes, you'll begin to see some patterns. For example, instead of wine (white or red), when deglazing, you could add another acid and vary the flavor and color. This is a great practice recipe here: http://rouxbe.com/recipes/1563-pork-medallions-with-miso-sauce/text In this recipe, we replace the acid with rice wine vinegar. We also add additional mirepoix (not just shallots, but garlic and ginger). And in this recipe, we added cream to finish the sauce which adds richness (and fat). We also used calvados to alter the flavor, and mustard and sage I believe at the end: http://rouxbe.com/recipes/1562-pork-with-morel-calvados-sauce/text So think of the pan sauce components and begin altering them. Maybe start with just some chicken medallions. Then make a simple red wine sauce (see: http://rouxbe.com/recipes/1527/text?tab=recipes - but use any chicken if you like) , then use white wine (or lemon juice), like we did in the Saltimbocca recipe. Then add herbs at the end. Hope this helps. Joe

Thanks Dawn, I ended up simmering the stock for 21 hours, refrigerated for 24 hours then reduced for another 4 hours, Turned out GREAT! Thanks again!

Thank you, Joe. Do you remerber how differently that classic demi-glace tasted from the more common version?

It was good, but again, not worth the effort in my opinion. If it were that much better, many great chefs would still be creating it using this classic method. In a nut shell (and the classic chef advocates out there would likely disagree), the process of making demi glace is almost like making a stock, and then using the stock to make another stock (so richer for sure). In fact so much richer, that you need to add a little thickening power because if you didn't, the "glace" state would be so concentrated that it would be overpowering to use (without it being a bit thickened by the roux / Espagnole. Try it though using chicken bones (dark chicken stock) if you like. The resulting glace is like very very dense jello btw. But again, you can achieve close to this state by just reducing a good quality stock. http://honest-food.net/wild-game/duck-goose-recipes/soups-stews-and-broths/wild-duck-or-goose-demi-glace/

Thank you, Joe!

Joe, and why do some recipes ask for adding some demi glace to the braising stock? I've seen recipes asking for less than one table spoon; if you put 4 table spoons of stock, instead, which does not change significantly the proportions of meat and liquid and can be further reduced to the required tablespoon of demi glace, how would demi glace improve the result?

The best way to learn how to cook is through experimenting and by using common sense to begin a) observing what is happening [visual and auditory cues], and answering your own questions. In short, you can braise with water or a flavorful liquid. So here's the question back at you? .... how would demi glace improve the result? What do you think? :-) Joe

Hi, Joe. Thank you. Sorry for the delay. I believe that demi glace is only a convenient way to add flavor to dishes – so that you can get a thicker consistency faster - and to store flavor with little liquid – saving space. I can’t understand how a braise for which you substitute four tablespoons of stock for the tablespoon of demi-glace required for the recipe could be different, as the added water from the stock would barely change the liquid to meat proportion. Or does the process of slowly reducing previously the stock to demi glace make the result completely different - by adding something new, or by synthesizing some new component - besides concentrating flavor, from the stock itself (which will be further concentrated to the final sauce, probably conveying all the demi glace properties)? In fact, in a dish I recently prepared, I used half demi glace and half stock, along with plenty of wine for a pan sauce and stopped to reduce it a little before the ideal point; I couldn’t notice any presence from the demi glace. This makes me think that demi glace is only convenience. What am I missing?

First comment is to try not to over think things. Trust your gut. Demi is convenient. Will reduce a pan sauce quicker. Saves space. Yes, you are right. Second comment, demi is really just reduced stock (with a bit of added love). So there is nothing that you are not getting. Just use a really good flavorful stock to braise and keep braising. Many people use water, or water and stock substitutes (like my grandma did) and still make amazing braised dishes. Grandma was great, because she seared correctly, deglazed with whiskey I think, added great mirepoix and then braised (all with precision). She then tasted things before finishing the dish. She used to adjust with mustard, salt, pepper, even horseradish sauce I think. You get it. BTW... your braised dish sounds like it was great. How was it?

Hi, Joe. The dish I mentioned just above was not a braise, but a steak with madere wine sauce. It was great, but I should have reduced the sauce a little bit further. I've been cooking braises and stews weekly because they are wonderfull and very convenient for my quick lunch time: I can cook them during the weekend and then reheat in the week days. They've been great, usually better than the ones I used to eat in good restaurants. Well, after Rouxbe I rarely think about going to restaurants! Thank you a lot for all the great lessons and discussion!

I have read about making veal stock over a 3 day period, by combining the first stock with a remouillage. Does this process have a name? And what are the practical differences.

I believe you are referring to Sauce Espagnole. This is not used in many kitchens anymore as it is time consuming etc. If you read through this thread there are quite a few discussion on this. And if you search "sauce espagnole" on Rouxbe (top right of each page), you will find many more discussions on this popular question. You may also want to check out the lesson and discussion on How to Make Veal or Beef Stock. Cheers!

I thought espagnole specifically included a roux. It's interesting how many different ways people make this sauce.

Great commentary on espagnole. I often think about the strong cultural and aesthetic reasons why this sauce is no longer widely utilized. I think the shift towards lighter reductions and emulsions (as an expression of Nouvelle Cuisine) and the labor required (skim, skim) squeezed it out of many French or European inspired restaurants. Enjoy!

Hi and happy New Year! I ve prepared a demi-glace today and when testing the final result the flavour is sweetish with a slight note of bitterness in it. I was wondering if that is correct or did I overdo the initial searing of the bones? I also realized that at the stage of searing after adding the tomato paste that it tends to get dark very fast. So the question is: Is a slight bitter note normal or should it be without any bitterness to the flavour of the end result? Thanks for an answer Kind Regards Markus

Hi Markus- A bit of bitterness is normal, bit it needs to be in balance with the rest of the sauce. You may have cooked the bones a bit too much or maybe a bit too much of the tomato paste was overcooked and it got too dark. Next time you make stock, trying backing down just a bit on how much you color your bones and see if that reduces the bitterness or just makes the stock less dark and robust. It does not take a lot of burnt matter to impart bitterness- so check for hot spots in the roasting pan as well. Enjoy!

Thanks, very quick answer. I apreciate!

Can't find veal bones at any of my local supermarkets. Any suggestions? Thank you.

Most butcher shops will sell veal bones. If they don't have them on hand, then they can generally order them for you. You might just want to call around before hand. Hope that helps. Cheers!

Thank you Dawn- I'll give a local butcher shop a try - to I'm not too hopeful... We used to have authentic butchers around here, but not so much any more. Can't even get a decent chuck roast with a bone in it (without paying a small fortune!) - much less veal bones. I miss the days when "cheap" cuts of meat were actually cheaper. To make a good pot roast, short ribs, or osso buco now days is as expensive as a good beef tenderloin! Do appreciate your suggestion, and of course the recipe!

Even "butcher shops" that dont' actually "butcher" anything anymore can usually order veal bones for you. If there are zero local options, here are a couple of online sources for veal bones. They are expensive, and I've not used either so can't vouch for them, but might be worth trying as a last resort. Even at these prices, I'd say it's worth it to have good Glace de Viande on hand. http://www.thebutcherblocklv.com/product.php?productid=16297 http://www.marxfoods.com/Veal-Bones

Thank you, Franklin.

One tip is to to pass by the local market on Saturday late in the Mornings when the butchers have sold a lot of meat. Then often i could get several kilos of veal bones for nearlly no money. I have another question to Rouxbe. I spent the summer reading Heston Blumenthal , and his approach to making stocks is to use a pressure cooker as it traps all flavours and reduces time. I am thinking of switching to that method . Any experience with that?

Hi Markus- We've had a lively discussion on pressure cooking over here: http://rouxbe.com/cooking-school/lessons/3-how-to-make-stock-fundamentals/discussion#post_20495 Check it out, I hope you find it valuable. I think stock made in a pressure cooker can be a very good product (the science of it makes sense), but it needs to be prepared correctly and with quality product. Enjoy!

Thanks Rouxbe, I have wanted to make Demi Glacé for a long time but felt intimidated. The process was no harder than making Dark Chicken Stock. It tastes wonderful. I can't wait to impress my friends It was well worth the effort. Keep up the good work.

Great Kathleen- So happy for your success. Keep up the good work. ~Ken

I followed this recipe to the letter, came back after 12 mins (not 15) and the tomato paste had completely burnt on the bones. I had it at 230 degrees (Celsius) and came back to remove from the oven 3 mins early. What have I done wrong? I now have several pounds of burnt bones

Hi Stu - thank you for your comments; I am so sorry that your tomato paste burned. This has happened to me in the past as well. I'd say that it sounds like your oven is calibrated on the hot side, which in most cases is great! So when you apply the tomato paste, the bones are typically already super hot - which can contribute to the paste caramelizing even faster. My recommendation is to wait a little longer in the bone-roasting process since your oven is set higher. You could also turn your temp down a bit but that might compromise the nice roast your bones are getting. You can also wait until the bones are just about ready, turn your oven off and then apply the tomato paste - leaving the bones in the oven for a bit before removing. Keep up the great work Stu; I know that you will achieve the desired outcomes. I appreciate your passion and thanks for cooking with Rouxbe! Chef Kirk

Thanks a lot, I have taken your advice and it worked out really well. Appreciate it!!

If you wish to remove all the fat there's an easier way. Cool the stock to about 40 degrees F or so. The fat will become less plastic at that temperature. Run the stock through a sieve of about 100 microns. It will catch the fat and let everything else pass. If you want ultra fat free you can warm the stock and run it through a 1 to 5 micron sock filter. That will remove all the fat but also some of the small particles that are said to add flavor. I do this with vegan demi and I've not really noticed much of a flavor difference. If you go through this you'll probably not want to do it again. So keep the stock solids and refrigerate them. In the future you can buy some store beef stock and use it as water with the solids to build a passable stock.

What would be the smallest size stock pot for this recipe? I am considering purchasing a stock pot and would like for it to be large enough for me to cook the Rouxbe dark stock and demi-glace recipes. Do you have any recommendations as to size and possibly brand? Thank you!

Hi Robert - I usually recommend at least 5-6 quarts for a small stock pot. In terms of brand, there are many options and I would check your local cookware store. ~Ken

Ive read that Demi glaze can be made with a reduced sauce espangole and beef stock? Is this true?

Hi Donald- Yes. Demi-glace can be made by using equal parts Brown Veal Stock and Sauce Espagnole. Combine in a pot a simmer over low medium heat until reduced by half. Strain. Serve or cool and refrigerate. Enjoy!

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hey donald, i dont have an answer for you